tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post3653547389886860362..comments2024-02-11T02:14:50.666-06:00Comments on The Hopeless Gamer: John Wick's Play Dirty? What happened to play collaboratively?The Hopeless Gamerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10641907554710405444noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-24471324561654687022010-07-21T16:27:47.059-05:002010-07-21T16:27:47.059-05:00Wow, thanks John for replying!
I really apprecia...Wow, thanks John for replying! <br /><br />I really appreciate you working to clarifying some of the questions we have here. I think it's important to clarify on my end that I'm just reacting to the one post in question, not Play Dirty in general as I haven't had the chance to read it. <br /><br />I'll be the first to say that no one should discount anything else you've produced because of the sample chapter or my reaction to it. I've watched the youtube videos I've linked above and since discussed others of your videos with TheBro (he especially likes your video where you talk about the players working to create the dungeon for you).<br /><br />The best reaction I've read on the rpg.net boards was that, like it or not, the Champions story makes you think about role-playing and your own views on it. I'll definitely cop to that being the case for me here. I've heard (and deeply believe) that good writing evokes a guttural response from the reader. <br /><br />I'm not so obtuse that I can't appreciate context and realize that investment in the game was your goal with Champions. I can appreciate that. I think when it comes down to it, the real aspect I took issue with was suggesting that the GM-Fiat presented in the Champions post is not appropriate for most games, and hence doesn't make great GM advice for most GM's out there. This is my opinion though, and of course others are welcome to theirs. <br /><br />Thanks again John for your thoughtful reply. Any chance you'll be at Gencon and could chat for a couple of minutes for the blog? :DThe Hopeless Gamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10641907554710405444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-2081851606462278952010-07-21T11:01:57.107-05:002010-07-21T11:01:57.107-05:00Hi there. I'm John Wick.
(No, really I am. My...Hi there. I'm John Wick.<br /><br />(No, really I am. My e-mail is johnjwick@gmail.com if you'd like to confirm.)<br /><br />First, as I've said before, the Champions game was a unique circumstance. It was an Iron Man environment (who can make it longest at John's game). It also followed on the heels of me running Call of Cthulhu for a year. I was dared to run a game like Champions where "it's impossible to kill characters." You'll also note that the only character I "killed" in those examples was the last one and only because the player requested it. The "I kill characters" comment was meant as an ironic statement and a lot of folks missed that. I don't kill a lot of characters. <br /><br />Second, I also wrote the article in 1999. That's 16 years ago. Times have changed a lot. My own style of GM'ing has changed and is reflected, I think, in the current Play Dirty videos I post on my Youtube channel.<br /><br />The John Wick of 1999 and the John Wick of 2010 have a lot in common, but they are not the same person. I disagree with some of the things the 1999 John Wick did and agree with others. So, I guess I'm in the same boat as everyone else.<br /><br />Thanks!John Wickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17398701268492367994noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-89551042107223073812010-07-20T15:54:00.095-05:002010-07-20T15:54:00.095-05:00I have since posted my rebuttal. Please enjoy. :...I have since posted my rebuttal. Please enjoy. :DA.P. Kloskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719352533858966154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-85704416375417208962010-07-19T16:40:28.531-05:002010-07-19T16:40:28.531-05:00I'll do my best to address those two points, i...I'll do my best to address those two points, if an adequate defense hasn't been raised for them. I can understand how people would be off-put by those two in particular, but I can equally understand how Wick adjucated and GMed the situation.<br /><br />As I said earlier, look for it all on Wednesday. :DA.P. Kloskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719352533858966154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-59455590281144124662010-07-19T16:32:42.297-05:002010-07-19T16:32:42.297-05:00I think you guys might be missing something - my b...I think you guys might be missing something - my blog post, and I'm assuming Greg's reaction to it, are all a direct reaction to the posted first chapter. It comes from a thread on RPG.net asking for reasons to buy Play Dirty. It was then suggested (by, I believe, Mr. Wick himself) that the first chapter would be a good example of the rest of the book and tell you if you want to buy it or not. Based on this, I thought it was very much not something I would want to pay money for. <br /><br />Chris, I appreciate you posting about how Wick defines these two different GM's, but I'd like to suggest a slight edit:<br /><br />"A Dirty GM, on the other hand, is someone who uses every dirty trick IN THE BOOK to challenge the players. Keeping them off balance with guerrilla tactics, he increases the players’ enjoyment with off-beat and unorthodox methods, forcing them to think on their feet, use their improvisational skills and keep their adrenaline pumping at full speed.<br /><br />This is good."<br /><br />See what I did there? The emphasis is on "in the book" which I would guess making the lucky advantage literally unlucky and making immune to disease superheroes extra susceptible and weakened against superhero-targeting diseases is not just dirty - it's breaking the social contract between GM and Players. It's just as bad as bending the rules too much in favor of the players to make things easier. <br /><br />Out of all the discussion about this first chapter and Play Dirty in general, I haven't seen anyone even attempt to defend those two points (luck and immunity). I really look forward to your response PlatinumWarlock and am curious if you plan on addressing these two areas specifically.The Hopeless Gamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10641907554710405444noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-21421617361543852512010-07-19T15:13:19.942-05:002010-07-19T15:13:19.942-05:00And to build again on PlatinumWarlock's quotin...And to build again on PlatinumWarlock's quoting of Play Dirty, here's an excerpt from the book that directly addresses the "killer GM" idea that The Hopeless Gamer seems to have about it:<br /><br />"But before I get started, I’d like to lay a couple of ground rules. After all, the title of this column could be a little deceptive. We’re here to talk about GM tricks. Nasty GM tricks that would make Ol’ Grimtooth himself do a double-take. What we are not here for is killing characters. Nobody wants to play with a Killer GM.<br /><br />But everybody wants to play with a Dirty GM.<br /><br />Just to make sure you know what I’m talking about, let’s spend a moment or two defining terms. In some circles—the ones I was educated in—that’s a pretty important step.<br /><br />A Killer GM is someone who takes glee in destroying characters. He kills them without remorse, without compassion, without care. He does it because he can. Gives him some sort of sick rush.<br /><br />This is bad.<br /><br />A Dirty GM, on the other hand, is someone who uses every dirty trick in the book to challenge the players. Keeping them off balance with guerrilla tactics, he increases the players’ enjoyment with off-beat and unorthodox methods, forcing them to think on their feet, use their improvisational skills and keep their adrenaline pumping at full speed.<br /><br />This is good."Chris Norwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12383357790853580688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-32160457415700839882010-07-19T13:44:23.395-05:002010-07-19T13:44:23.395-05:00Greg, the very example you're citing is not a ...Greg, the very example you're citing is not a situation meant to "punish" anyone their behavior.<br /><br />If anything, it a matter of upholding the social contract that's in the game itself. If you do something in the game, there are concequences for it in said game.<br /><br />The character listed in the example--"Malice"--was "a big, fat thorn in Carter's side. She was getting too close to his secret, so he decided to retire her" (Wick 12). The character's actions in game of investigating her patron-cum-crimelord, resulted in Wick (as a GM) utilizing one of the character's Disadvantages (the Dependent NPC). That's right--a "Disadvantage". <br /><br />If anything, Wick played this particular scenario in a realistic and reasonable way, if slightly over the top in execution (paralysis ray and dropped through a skylight, over the a simple 'put Aunt May in jeopardy' bit).<br /><br />What you don't see, particularly if you didn't read the article, is the fall of Jefferson Carter, due in no small part to Malice's player. As another set of heroes followed the clues (over the course of months of high-tension gaming), they finally put one over on Carter.<br /><br />"They didn't kill him. They didn't maim him. They didn't cause a single point of Stun or Body. Instead, they turned him over to the authorities, with all the necessary evidence to convict him for 17 life sentences. The prosecuting attorney was a young woman who used to be known as Malice, making a special appearance for one night only. We did the whole trial...The room was filled with almost every member of the gaming club. We selected jurors...and they turned in a verdict of guilty on all but one count. Jefferson Carter would spend the rest of his life in prison...The good guys won. The bad guy was behind bars" (Wick 35-36).<br /><br />Wick does not asks GMs to kill players in any sense of the word. Wick does not ask GMs to "be a jerk" just because you can. Much to the contrary, his narrative is filled with stories of gamers 'coming back for more'.<br />Wick simply puts forward the notion that a character in-game should be held accountable for a player's selections out of game.<br /><br />If it's "adversarial gaming" to inspire that degree of both passion, interest, and (to be honest) hate for a fictional character, then by all means--count me in. <br /><br />I apologize for the length of this: I really intended to continue my assertions with the rebuttal in my blog post this week. I do hope that those of you that haven't read this--Greg, I'm looking in your direction--give it a chance and learn something from one of the greater Game Masters of our age.A.P. Kloskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719352533858966154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-61705741525605070542010-07-19T11:04:42.703-05:002010-07-19T11:04:42.703-05:00I think that what PlatinumWarlock means by "u...I think that what PlatinumWarlock means by "uninformed or misinformed" is actually, "did you read the book, or just jump in with your opinion based on what this blog article told you?"<br /><br />It's been a while since I read Play Dirty, but once you get past the "shock and awe" atmosphere of the first chapter or two, John Wick gets into what he's really talking about, which is, actually, more of a collaborative style of play. It's a great resource, even if you don't agree with everything that he says, and it's worth the read for pretty much any GM.Chris Norwoodhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12383357790853580688noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-4454202864372781982010-07-19T09:27:49.464-05:002010-07-19T09:27:49.464-05:00I'm not uninformed or misinformed. If this gu...I'm not uninformed or misinformed. If this guy is finding ways to "punish" players for decisions they make while playing what is essentially Let's Pretend, instead of just looking for another game, then he's pretty deep into the 7 year-old behavior that Mrs. Gamer mentioned. What else needs saying?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294162646694379135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-86050257393447027032010-07-18T23:04:05.251-05:002010-07-18T23:04:05.251-05:00Greg--The defense for Wick's article is not th...Greg--The defense for Wick's article is not the idea that you're "being a jerk" to your players for any arbitrary reason. Wick's premise is that a GM should hold his players accountable for their decisions both within the narrative of the game as well as in terms of their mechanical decisions. Wick doesn't advocate, in any sense, killing characters arbitrarily. To the contrary, the great "lie" of the first chapter of "Play Dirty" is that he doesn't truly kill a lot of characters--he admits to such in later chapters.<br /><br />I'm getting into territory that I can better cover in a full article, so if you'd like to continue the debate--which I'm actually interested in, as I like hearing the dissenting view. I do, however, believe that you're either uninformed or misinformed about Wick's true intent as well as his delivery.A.P. Kloskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719352533858966154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-33690951494327771432010-07-18T17:16:55.523-05:002010-07-18T17:16:55.523-05:00The only time I have played against my players was...The only time I have played against my players was a couple of one shot delves I warned them about in advance. I did not have as much fun with it as a normal game. I want to see people use creativity and skill to succeed over difficult challenges, not get ticked because turned something that is supposed to help against them. <br /><br />I do like challenging assumptions, and Wick does that. I challenged my viewpoint and it held strong. I also love his call of cthulhu scenario Digging for a Dead God. That pitted players against each other and fit with the Cthulhu genre very well.Chuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18383447842586325325noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-80049025158403599952010-07-18T16:36:39.894-05:002010-07-18T16:36:39.894-05:00I don't think there is any kind of justificati...I don't think there is any kind of justification for making a game people are supposed to enjoy less fun for them, simply because you don't like how they play it. It's called being a jerk, actually, and I've seen too many Closet Napoleons behave like this to consider it gaming; it's more like a passive-aggressive cry for help.<br /><br />If someone wants a different kind of game, I say tell your players, find new ones, or shut yer hole and give them what they like - heck, you might even end up liking it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11294162646694379135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-76618907404031061532010-07-18T15:19:27.177-05:002010-07-18T15:19:27.177-05:00I'm going to provide the dissenting opinion he...I'm going to provide the dissenting opinion here, as I geniunely think that Wick's article challenges people's basic assumptions about gaming and brings fresh air into what easily becomes a cliche-ridden hobby.<br /><br />However, as my defense of "Play Dirty" may take a while in terms of both space and in time to write, I'd like to make it my own blog post. I'll be responding in my entry on Wednesday at http://platinumwarlock.blogspot.com. Cheers! :DA.P. Kloskyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09719352533858966154noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-25414582723429712972010-07-18T11:02:44.983-05:002010-07-18T11:02:44.983-05:00I agree that John Wick's Play Dirty stuff is t...I agree that John Wick's Play Dirty stuff is too hardcore. One the one hand, I understand some of what he's trying to do ("PC disadvantages are point crocks, so I'm going to make sure that they really inconvenience them"), but he seems to be using a sledgehammer to bang in a nail.<br /><br />And using advantages against characters? That's just mean.F. Douglas Wallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06497140550892192807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2373575960761016322.post-6209819431972710952010-07-18T09:26:24.618-05:002010-07-18T09:26:24.618-05:00Yeah, I completely agree with you on all fronts. M...Yeah, I completely agree with you on all fronts. Maybe because I'm a GIRL and get my feelings hurt all easily, ya know, but I get the feeling I'd play in exactly one "dirty" game before learning my lesson and finding a new play group. <br /><br />This whole concept just reminds me of a really pushy "friend" I had in ELEMENTARY school - she always had to be in charge of what we played, what my favorite color was, etc., with no regard to whether or not anyone else was having any fun. I'm glad to say I've learned my lesson since age 7 and try not to associate with this type of selfish people anymore.Andrea - Gamer Wifehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17842021860731372283noreply@blogger.com